#21: Embracing the Magic in the Mess with Molly Booker
JANUARY 30, 2025
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In this powerful and inspiring episode of Courage to Heal, I sit down with Molly Booker—author, speaker, and advocate for authenticity. Molly shares her transformative journey of coming out in her 40s, overcoming perfectionism, and rediscovering her true self. Together, we explore the deep connections between self-worth, identity, and the courage it takes to step into your most authentic life.
Discover how perfectionism often stems from a fear of not being good enough, how to shift from self-criticism to self-compassion, and why embracing the messiness of life is the key to connection and healing. Molly offers powerful advice for those struggling with their identity and the importance of accepting and loving one's true self.
Plus, don’t miss the chance to win a signed copy of Molly's book, Magic in the Mess!
[01:27] Molly's Journey with Perfectionism
[08:16] The Turning Point
[12:56] Compassionate Self-Forgiveness
[24:08] People Pleasing and Perfectionism
[28:16] Conforming to Societal Expectations
[32:58] Discovering Authenticity in Relationships
[38:46] Embracing Authenticity as Sexy
[44:57] Balancing Life's Dualities
Episode Links:
To win a signed copy of Molly’s book Magic in The Mess, click HERE.
Buy a copy of Magic in the Mess HERE.
Learn more about Molly HERE.
Transcript
Anna: Hello, friends, and welcome to Courage to Heal. Today, I am very pleased to introduce you to a very cool person with an incredible story. Her name is Molly Booker. Molly is an author, speaker, and advocate for authenticity and personal transformation. Her book, Magic in the Mess, chronicles her journey of coming out, navigating identity, and rebuilding a life that fits - not society's expectations, but her own truth.
With raw honesty and a touch of humor, Molly inspires others to embrace their stories, find their voice and step into their most authentic selves. A passionate storyteller and coach, she's on a mission to create spaces where vulnerability and connection can thrive.
Molly, welcome to Courage to Heal. It's wonderful to have you here.
Molly: Thank you. I'm, I'm excited to be here. Yeah, I'm grateful to be part of this community for conversation and to see where it goes. So thank, thank you for having me. It's a pleasure.
Anna: Yeah. And Molly, your story as I read the book, it was really inspiring. I have to say, I love your writing style and how honest and authentic you are in the book.
Which makes sense, considering the topic. I also have to say the tears were shed while I was reading it because it was so relatable on so many levels for me. So, would you say, would it be accurate to call you a recovering perfectionist?
Molly: Oh, for sure. Yeah, and I'm not even perfect at not being perfect, so yes to that.
Anna: Yes, and that's why I use the term recovering, not recovered, because it's a lifelong journey. So, in your opinion and in your experience, what do you think perfectionism is and how is it connected, if it is connected, to not feeling good enough or feeling unlovable?
Molly: Yeah, I think what's interesting is from very early on, I had this idea that was like success was being the best. So success was being the best at soccer. Success was being the best at skiing. Success was being the best in at school, getting straight A's being the best was had a lot to do with perfection.
And I tied that to worth, like, if I'm the best at something, then I'll be loved, then I'll be accepted, then I'll be appreciated, I'll be heard, I'll be seen. And so for me, in my, you know, little kid brain, I really wanted that. I wanted to be heard. I wanted to be seen. I wanted to belong. I wanted, you know, to be valued and to what I had to say matter.
You know, I wanted to be special. And I thought that was the way to get there. And so I started working and efforting really hard. I wanted to be, you know, I'm the middle child, the only girl out of three and, you know, I kind of just got lost in that, like, I live in a chaotic household and My older brother, you know, really struggled with diabetes and his blood sugar and then drugs and alcohol.
And my little brother was like the golden child and, you know, everything came easy to him. He's super good looking. He's popular from like birth popular and amazing athlete, just like everything he touched turned to gold. And so, you know, I'm just in the middle and like, I just want to be. Success like that's my thing.
I want to be a good student. And so the thing is, it wasn't a destination for me, you know, it wasn't like, oh, this is like an intention. This is where I'm heading. This is, you know, like, I'll climb those steps and enjoy it getting there. It was like it was Desperate. It was like, it was essential to me.
Like, I need this in order to feel that I belong and that I matter and that I'm lovable. And so I became very obsessed with that I became very obsessed with my grades and you know, if I came home with a B plus I was so devastated you know or even like a 97 and so I said I could only focus on that three percent and what happened there and so like what that definition of success and what that model of how to be in the world did was it constantly reinforced to me that I wasn't there like it just calm every time I tried to get there kind of the undercurrent was you're not there, you know, you're not perfect and so You know, my core foundational belief was like I'm not good enough.
I'm not lovable. And so it's interesting that in, in this desire to want that I locked in that I'm not already that. And so that really created a, a really long time, a difficult childhood with depression and a lot of suicidal ideation feeling that I'm not worthy. I'm not good enough. I'm not. I can't seem to do anything perfect.
You know, I just felt like I'm failing at all things and including I'm failing at the one thing that you can't fail at, which is how to live life. I can't figure out how to be happy. I can't. It's like I didn't get the directions or something. And so that You know, it's like I made that up somewhere when I was a kid and then I forgot that I did it.
And so it never occurred to me that I created this definition of success or that, you know, I decided that this was something that I was going to spend my life doing. It just seemed to me, well, that's the way the world works. And, you know, Molly, if you want to be happy, you just got to work harder. You know, and anytime I'm not happy, it's just like, I'm just I'm not efforting enough.
I need to do more. I need to be more, you know, I need to. Be better. I need to be more. I need, you know, all those things. And I got really, really, really good at efforting. And what's amazing is, is I was a straight A student, straight A's all the way through. I have three master's degrees. I'm a master at getting A's.
Like I really know how to do that. And I got really good at pleasing people. I got really good at efforting. I mean, I can out effort almost anybody, you know, and. Employers loved me. I would just go in and I'm just like, I just want to get it all right. And I want to work super hard, and I want to work extra.
And, you know I had a lot of success with it. You know, I did get good grades. I did achieve a lot. I did make money. I did get married and I was doing all the things that I think to climb that ladder. But the thing is, I never felt I never got the carrot, you know, like I never felt, oh, here's belonging.
Yay, I got straight A's. So now I'm, I'm in the cool club, you know, like I never felt that. I never felt like, oh, here's lovability. Here it is. I finally got it. Or here's a belonging. I just always felt like, okay, I got straight A's, but I got some A minuses, you know, or okay, I got this degree, but I haven't earned a doctorate.
Or I got married, but I don't know that this is my right partner. You know, it's like there was, the bar always moved.
Anna: Right, right, absolutely, because what you're talking about, it makes me feel like that striving, that efforting, that perfectionism, it was like a survival strategy, right? And in the book, I think you say that you began to believe that earning and achieving equaled specialness and worth.
Effort and perfection weren't just expectations, they were requirements. And that's exactly what you're speaking to right now. In the book, you also tell a story that, that one really kind of touched me deeply of getting lost in the Colorado woods on the way to spend time with your then boyfriend.
And instead of being worried about your own well-being as the sun is going down and you're all by yourself in these woods, you kept thinking, “Close the gap between where you are and where you should be. You're not where you should be. Close the gap.” And that word, should, I think is so familiar to any perfectionist.
So can you tell me your relationship over your life with that “Should?”
Molly: You know, a coach once told me like, Molly, stop shoulding on yourself. And yeah, it does. I mean, there's just no power in that word. I mean, it'll just take your energy level and just, I mean, even as we talk about it, you know, and say should.
Good. It just feels heavy. So I think as you were talking about that is I reflect on getting lost at Colorado. The Rocky Mountain National Park. I got lost in those woods and I think it highlights a pattern that I've had all of my life that I am just now even barely scraping the surface arm is like this over responsibility.
That if something's wrong, it's my fault, you know, that I, I really took that on as a kid and I still do. So, you know, here I am lost and. It's like I'm the one inflicting something on somebody else, like, Oh, people are going to be worried about me, or I'm going to cause people to need to come out and look for me, You know, but it was never like you know, why didn't I say like, Gosh, this trail is horribly marked.
There's a little tiny place where you have to walk over a rock to see the trail. It's not clear, you know, why wasn't it like, Oh, that signage is horrible, or, you know I didn't have what I need today in order to be successful, you know, or, Where were the keys, you know, like, It just never occurred to me that there, that it was nobody's fault or that to have some grace or compassion for myself, you know, there was just that I'm, I didn't do it right.
And that's unacceptable, you know, yeah, I think there was a lot of shame and embarrassment. Like, I don't know how many times on that hike. I said that, like, I know better. I'm better than this. I know better. You know, like I grew up in these, I grew up hiking. You know, I’ve actually been to this cabin before like I’ve been there once before So I should be an expert on how to get there I just shouldn't make mistakes like this You know, I just it is interesting that that was a hike of beating myself up you know, like yes the whole way, you know was just like Gosh, if that, if that was, you know, another person that was constantly like, pick up the pace, you're walking a little slow, I think you went the wrong way, you're, you know, you're out of shape, you pack too much, you know, you don't have what you, oh my god, shut up, you know, but yeah, that's.
And that's how I talked to myself a lot in those, in those days.
Anna: Yeah, yeah, you do a very good job of describing that constant negative self-talk, and like you said, it's like a voice in your head, right? And at some point you even talk about shaming yourself when you notice the negative self-talk. So it's like a double whammy of self-criticism.
Like, why am I being so mean to myself? But it's not said in a kind way. So I'm curious, how did you start confronting those negative thoughts and turning them into more self-compassionate thoughts and self-loving thoughts?
Molly: Yeah. At first, I didn't even really notice I was doing that. This didn’t occur to me this was a voice or that it was really negative. It's just like that's just what I knew, you know, like doesn't everybody have that and talk themselves that way?
So the first came with awareness of what? Wow. I what is this voice? Is this me talking to myself? And why am I so? Why am I such an asshole, you know, like and so I think at first was awareness and this journey of healing and, you know, wanting to find that elusive there, you know, where there's belonging and love this journey took me to a master's in spiritual psychology and there I learned a practice called compassionate self-forgiveness, And at first it just felt like kind of Charlie Brown kind of like It didn't I couldn't feel anything and it just felt kind of fake but they said, just keep doing that.
Just keep doing that. Just keep doing it. So, you know, when you put your hand on your heart and it's like, I forgive myself for judging myself as a failure, you know, and sometimes it wouldn't even make sense. You know, like I forgive myself for judging myself as silly and I'm like, silly, what does that even mean?
But it just is like, okay, just stay with it. You know, I forgive myself for buying into the misunderstanding that I've, you know, that I've ever been anywhere than other went there than other than where I really needed to be right in that moment, you know, and at first I didn't relate to it. I don't know that I really believed it.
You know, I forgive myself for judging myself as ugly, but then my brain would be like, but I kind of am, you know, it just was that a lot, but this program went for two years. So I just kept saying it in the chair and I just kept saying it. And then, you know, something started to shift. Like the one that I was really working on is I felt ugly.
Like I'm not attractive. I'm, you know, I didn't have boyfriends growing up and, you know, just relationships have always been a huge struggle. And so I felt like, the reason why I'm not connecting is, is that I'm ugly. And so I, I, you know, forgive myself for judging myself as ugly, forgive myself for judging myself as, you know, having an acne.
I forgive myself for judging myself as, you know, looking like a boy or whatever it may be. And after a time, you know, I look in the mirror and at first I just, I turned my stomach like I just couldn't stand looking at myself. And then I kept doing it and then I started getting curious, like, okay.
This is where I'm at, you know, and I think that that was a sign that there was some more compassion for myself. Like, I got curious, and it was like, what do I find so disgusting? Like, I'm kind of curious about that. And I'd look, you know, like, what is it that I find so disgusting? And then it was like, well, I don't know that that's accurate.
I don't know that I find myself disgusting so much as I'm just having a hard time finding beauty in myself and then, you know, a couple weeks would go by and I'd be like, well, actually, I really do like my eyes. I think I have really cool eyes. And it's like, I like my ears. I think they're very proportionate to my face, you know?
I have good ears and I have good eyes, you know, and then it was like, well, my cheeks are really cool too, and I have good skin, like, okay, cheeks, eyes, ears, we're good there, and then it just kept growing and it was all that, like, I forgive myself for judging myself as ugly, I forgive myself for buying into the misunderstanding that there is something wrong with my face.
You know, I forgive myself for buying into the misunderstanding that my face has anything to do with myself being in a relationship. And then, you know, over time, I started to like looking at myself. And then it became, like, really fun. Like, I'd catch myself in the mirror, and I'd start saying out loud, like, I look amazing.
And, like, not trying to be funny, but I really felt that. And so today, I, you know, like, I love getting my picture taken. And I'm like, Oh, that's such a good one. Most of the time. I'm like, that is a good picture. Even right now. I am looking at myself talking to you being like, I love how I look, and my face really has not changed that much.
But what has changed is that harsh voice. And it just was from that compassionate self-forgiveness. So, you know, I would offer that if there's something that you really find objectionable about yourself, whether it's your, you know, I, I run across a lot of people that, you know, have this story that they're not smart, you know, like, like the oldest child was like, Oh, you know, they could read early.
So they're the smart one. And then that for some reason declared the second child to be the dumb one, you know, and so. You know, that would keep them from pursuing education or reading or raising their hand or, you know, participating. And so if that's something you can relate to, I forgive myself for judging myself as dumb.
You know, I forgive myself for buying into the misunderstanding that You know that there was ever something wrong with me as a kid, you know, or my how fast I learned to read as a kid would have anything to do with my intelligence. Just keep doing it. Just keep doing it.
Anna: I love that. I love that technique because I do often tell my clients that if you can't muster self-compassion, at least get to curiosity.
Molly: Yeah, that was. You would have been a good coach for me. You know, I stumbled upon that after trial and error. But yes, I so agree that I knew the needle was moving when I started to experience curiosity about it. And it's kind of a fun question, like, whatever the thing is, you know, like I'm dumb, like, okay, what is it that I really find so unintelligent about myself is like, is it that I don't know, you know, The capitals?
Like, is that the problem? Or is it that I read slow? You know, like, curious, like, what, how am I defining intelligent?
Anna: Yeah. Right. Right. Because I think when you get curious, you start to remove some of that judgment. Mm hmm. Because you just allow yourself to, to be as you are, and asking these questions, slowly you're going to start finding evidence to the contrary.
And then that compassion is going to catch all of a sudden, like it did for you and a new view of yourself as, look at me, I'm actually not ugly, I'm actually beautiful, and I can look at myself and be perfectly happy with it.
Molly: Yeah, and I'd say it took it, you know, it was a practice. It was a daily practice of working on that over a period of time.
It wasn't like, oh, I'm ugly and I'm just going to start telling myself because. I wasn't there yet. But I think there is something about this space of curiosity and I feel like that really is the heart of the book. You know, the magic is in the mess is that for me wanting to stay in perfectionism, it kept me really locked into a fixed way of thinking and being, you know, like I, Was only going to attempt things that I knew that I was already going to be pretty good at you know, like my, my tolerance threshold for what I can see failure was very small.
So, like, I'll do it if I think I can get an A. If I can't get an A, I'm not even going to take that class. I didn't take a lot of classes that I was interested in in high school, the advanced placement classes, I, I was terrified that I wouldn't be perfect at that, which is hilarious, like, I am terrified that I am not gonna be good at taking a class I haven't taken yet but I, I think what I found is, is in Letting like letting go of my such grip on needing to like always have it figured out like I entered into a space, you know, and in that to me, that was the messy space of like, well, maybe I don't know myself as well as I thought it did.
Maybe how I viewed relationship is. It is really a way that doesn't work for me. Maybe that's why this has been such a struggle. But in that space of curiosity, in that space of wrestle, which is kind of messy, you know, when we don't know the answers yet, when we're not certain. Like, to me, in that space, it's like, Oh, here is belonging.
Not when I've sorted out the mess. In, in it, in that space of curiosity in that practice of looking at myself in the mirror, like, I started to have these huge, like, spiritual awarenesses or divine inspirations of, oh my, oh my gosh, like, I have the power to change my mind. And if I can change my mind, I can change anything.
Like, I changed myself from ugly to beautiful by changing my mind. You know, so I don't know if I'm explaining it well, but I really found what I was going for was an acceptance of mess. And what I came was like a love of the mess. Like, Oh, in these messy conversations, when we talk about fame and belonging and guilt and mess and failure and, you know, all these things that we kind of want to hope that we don't ever have.
Is where we experience connection and curiosity and belonging and healing, like, this is the good part. Who knew?
Anna: Yes, who knew? Who knew? That's so relatable, for sure. And, you know, speaking of relationships that you mentioned just now, you talk about many instances where you didn't trust your intuition and you ignored red flags, especially in those relationships.
And it was kind of done all in the name of pleasing others. So can you tell me a bit more about kind of this people pleasing and how it goes hand in hand with perfectionism and how you started to overcome that?
Molly: Yeah, I like really early on, I received some feedback that maybe the way I wasn't doing it wasn't the way that it was supposed to be done.
So for example, I. I liked wearing pockets and I really liked, I was a very athletic kid, you know, I had two brothers and growing up in the mountains of Colorado and I was aggressive because, you know, we fought as kids and so I liked wearing more what my brothers were wearing and then I got teased like, Molly, you're a tomboy.
And so, rather than saying like so who cares or no, I'm not I was like, oh you're right, and I’m bad and wrong like that. That's not good about me. And so I tried to not be or you know, I got told that you know, I was really terrible at the times table. Like, I just had a hard time memorizing it. And the way that I learned math was like to count all the numbers.
So when I was doing 8 times 7, in my head I was trying to count, eight, seven times. That takes a long time. It's hard to get that completed in a minute. Right. So, you know, then I took that on to mean that, you know, I wasn't smart. I'm like, I'm bad at math. And so what I was doing was telling me that my inner knowing wasn't right.
Like, Molly, what, what you feel called to wear is not acceptable. And, you know, it just felt like it kept happening. I grew up in a skiing family and I didn't like skiing, but it was like, no, this is what we're doing. And so rather than saying, no, I don't like this, this, this is not for me. I felt like what's wrong with me that I don't like it.
I need to figure out how to like it. Let me try harder at it. Maybe it's because I'm not good at it. I just need to practice more. And so, like, I stopped listening to that voice that, you know, that was calling me to be, to express my gender in a unique way. Or you know, another thing that happened was I, In fifth grade, we had our first boy girl party.
I talk about this in the book, and I felt terrified about that. Like, no part of me wanted to go to a girl boy party. And I did not want to kiss a boy. No, no, no. And that was so strong. It was so clear and Like I'm proud of my fifth grade self because I didn't and like I didn't play that licorice game where you like meet your mouth with in the middle, you know, or I didn't play spin the bottle, you know, I didn't I, I just was adamant like that is not for me, but in sitting on the stairs and saying like, I'm going to opt out of this one, you know, my friend's parents said, what are you a prude?
And I was like, Oh, I'm doing it wrong. And so that became like, I feel like that's the original source of abandonment. Like, my truth isn't as good as my dad's truth, or my teacher's truth, or my friend's truth, or my friend's parent's truth. Theirs is better, so I will leave myself, I will leave the driver's seat in my own life, and I will come over here and do it their way.
And so, Like I felt abandoned and I thought it was like why do I have abandonment issues, you know, like this is strange it's because I abandoned myself so I Stopped listening to myself at all. And I just did what I thought was the right thing to do. It was to get good grades, to go to a good college, to get good grades at a good college, then get a master's degree, then get a good job, get married, have kids, buy a house, buy a car, go on vacation, have nice things.
That's what I'm supposed to do. I'm also supposed to really fall into the patriarchy too. Which is difficult because I'm a woman, so I'm supposed to really value men's opinions over my own, so that makes me kind of want to be masculine. And, you know, and so, like, these different things happen where I really, I rejected my femininity, you know, and I wanted to be where I thought the power, the acceptance was, which was in this thing of success.
And so I did what I thought I should do. I went to college. I worked hard. I got a job. I got married. I bought things. And I was more miserable than ever. That's not fair. Like, that, that's not, I played the game. I did it really well and I'm losing. What, that, that sucks. And so it wasn't until, you know, suicidal crisis in my mid-thirties that it ever occurred to me like, well, what if I did it my way?
Never occurred to me. And then when I, you know, started saying, well, what, what does my way look like? It has been a profound unraveling. It has been a profound unlearning. And even as I almost approached 50, I'm still astounded at the stuff that I had buried from myself. Even my sexuality, I was so committed to doing it the right way that I convinced myself that, you know, marrying a man was going to be make me happy.
And then, you know, as I start allowing myself more time in the mess. You know, all of a sudden I'm like, well, wait, maybe I am in love with my friend, Kelly. Hmm, I, I wouldn't have allowed that because it would have so fractured me off that pattern of what I thought would be successful. So then I'm like, oh, well, this makes the fifth-grade boy or girl party make a lot more sense.
I'm not rude. I just don't like kissing boys. That makes that make a lot more sense. But I think what all of this is teaching me is I made that wrong about my fifth-grade self Like I don't like kissing boys and then I twisted it like that's where it started I don't like kissing boys and then I twisted it.
I don't know where it got that twist but then I locked in boys don't like kissing me. I'm not attractive. And so I was desperate to prove that wrong funny all along. I'm the one that's not liking this. So there was a lot of unraveling that and there is still a lot of unpacking of trying to fit in this box of being this person.
That, you know, I thought my parents wanted me to be or that society wanted me to be I don't even know who it is I think I’m pleasing anymore. Like I don't live with my parents. I'm almost 50 But somewhere there was still that trying to stay in the line, stay within the lines and that, that has been a practice of allowing myself to change my mind about myself, about my sexuality, about my gender expression.
I, I just really did not know myself at all. And I didn't even know that I didn't know myself.
Anna: Yeah, I think that's true for, for a lot of people really, that what you're talking about how your own truth was worth less to you than other people's truth about you. Yeah. And how, over time, that became no longer the case.
And, in general, for you, discovering and then owning your sexual identity seemed to be a huge catalyst for that personal growth. I think in the book you say that coming out as gay in your 40s wasn't about seeking approval. It was about declaring your truth. So I wonder what message or advice do you have for people who are afraid to declare the truth about their identity?
Molly: You know, here in this kind of like funny, simple example, I so. You know, one of my friends Kelly had came to me and I said, said, I think you're my person. And I'm like, oh, like Grey's Anatomy, Meredith and Christina, like, we're going to be BFFs. And she's like, not quite like that. And I was like, oh, you mean like buffers.
And I think about it for a minute. And I was like, yeah, okay. And that's just kind of how quickly I came out to myself. So we hadn't been dating very long and she's in Nashville and I'm in Colorado. And we also wanted to do all of this the right way. Of course, like, I got to come out perfectly.
So, you know, I was pastoring a church. So I talked to the bishop, and I wanted to know, you know, that I'm, I'm staying within the lines as a pastor. And so I did all that. And You know, as she was married at the time, I'm like, I, I, you know, I, I'm not going to do that. So she had separated from her husband and then we started.
You know texting and talking more and so, pretty early on she sent me a text of like her hip bone and it just had this lacy underwear and for four seconds I was like super delighted like oh my gosh this I now understand lacy underwear never got it my whole life. Like I’m not wearing this This is uncomfortable.
Why do men find this attractive? All of a sudden, I'm like, Oh, wow, I get it. I get it now. And then after four seconds of elation, I went so far down the rabbit hole. Like, crying on the floor of like, I'm never going to be able to reciprocate this. This amazing thing that I just almost barely touched is not going to happen because I can't do that and she's not going to want to be with me because I, I'm not sexy.
I'm not that. And so I finally got the courage to tell her and she just started laughing and I, you know, and it kind of hurt my feelings at first. And she's like, Molly, I don't want to see you in that. And I'm like, you don't. And she's like, no, no, no, no, no, no. And I'm like, well, what is my underwear? And she's like, well, I don't know.
And I'm like crying. I don't even know my underwear. So I went on Amazon and I like Googled like tomboy underwear or, you know, like, anyway, I ordered like 10 different kinds of underwear and then, you know, they came and I tried on all the underwear when I found my underwear. Like with like women's boxers.
My whole, like, it was a profound moment. Like, something had always been kind of a little off with me, and then it locked in straight, like, kind of like, Oh, my God, my back was out of alignment this whole time, and I never even realized it till I got back in alignment. And I just felt like I can do anything in the world.
My confidence increased, and I just felt so much more me. And then I had this awareness of, huh, and I and I said, How do you feel about how I like to wear my jeans? Because from the time I can remember, I've always liked to wear my jeans lower on my hip, with my belt low. My mom could not stand that.
Like, my! You know? And, you know, and I always felt like that was a real big defect of me. Like, this is something that, this is a blemish on me. Like, I like to wear my belt low, and I'm so particular about it. I can't not fix, I just can't fix it. And so once I got my underwear that I liked, I was like, well, I am wearing my pants this way.
This is how I've always liked it. And Kelly said, I find that incredibly sexy. My life changed in that moment. Because what I realized is, is something that I had held so wrong, so off, so unattractive about myself, actually was the thing that initially attracted Kelly to me. And I, I was like, oh, whatever that thing is that you think is so profoundly wrong with you is actually like the best of you.
I know that feels so weird until you can see it, but the fact that I didn't like my underwear as a kid, like, is the thing that really brought me home to myself, you know, or the fact that I like to wear. My I don't know where that comes from like where is that how you decide you like to wear your belt?
Like I don't know it locked in somewhere and it turns out that that very specific Thing about me adds to my swagger, you know, it is what makes me sexy and so I would love for more people to see That the thing that you've been told is not good about yourself, you know, the thing that you just are like, oh, if I could just fix this one thing, like, if you could see that's what makes you sexy.
Yeah, it just, it just, it's like putting on glasses or something. It's like, I can see clear now.
Anna: Yes, yes. In the book, I think you say you had this realization that authenticity is the new sexy. Yeah, as you went shopping for men's shirts and those little hands and everything, just fully living your truth at that point.
Molly: Such a revelation. Like, I thought sexy was high heels, blonde, white, curly, wavy hair, lipstick, tan skin, thin, strong. Like, I thought that was sexy. And I thought that's what everybody thought sexy was. Cuz that's what was being represented to me as sexy. That's what was in people magazine. That's what was in teen beat aging myself here You know, that's what I saw.
And so it never occurred to me like well, that's not everyone's definition of sexy And so it was really freeing to realize No, there isn't a set definition of sexy, you know, sexy is the feeling you get when you really embody your. Honest self expression like that is sexy. Authenticity is sexy. You know, like really loving that about yourself is sexy.
And it's interesting. That's what's attractive. It has nothing to do with what you're putting on or what makeup you have. It's how you. You know, like that's the measure of attractiveness of how attractive do you think you are right? Yeah, which is kind of paradoxical to how we hold that.
Anna: Absolutely. It is. And, you know, in the book, you emphasize how neither coming out nor finding your person, Kelly, was the end of your growth or some magic solution to all of life's problems. You do quite the opposite, because I think when we tend to have this idea that we can finally be happy if and when certain things happen for us.
It's like, again, we're earning or yearning for that perfect destination instead of enjoying the messy journey. Yeah. So, like, now, as you've written this book and just, you continue your journey, how do you learn to accept this uncertainty of, no, you don't know what's going to happen and enjoy the ride?
Molly: Yeah, I, You know, I feel like I have now gotten to the point where I can really do the work, which to me is exciting. You know, like that's like I've graduated to the point of now, you know, being able to do this work. And so I always thought, like, if I could find my person. I would be happy. That's what I wanted more than anything is to have a soulmate or, you know, the love of my life.
And it, you know, it was really disappointing because I didn't really deep-down feel that about the first two men that I married. They were, you know, great human beings, but I just, that was missing. And I felt a lot of shame about that, you know, that it must be like, I'm not attractive. And so. You know, I connect with Kelly and it just aligns in so many different ways and it's not like, okay, boom, you've arrived, you're now at the good place, you know, hearts, roses, for me, rainbows, you know, it's all like, heart, heart.
You know, it, it's not, it's, it's hard. You know, it's, it's now I get to really learn how to be in relationship. I was so closed and so far from myself that I didn't even know that I really wasn't showing up in relationship, which is why I was so lonely. So now's the opportunity, like now I'm home and in a safe space where I can.
Let down all the masks, you know, and I feel like that's the good news, you know that I get to start picking these masks are and so I think coming out and writing this book is a can is the practice of the lifelong practice of continually letting down the armor and the masks, and the more that I do that, the more You know, I love who I'm seeing.
I love what's behind these masks. It's actually the mask that I found kind of ugly. But me, you know, I’m really enjoying myself. And so it's still a practice, you know, man, that there is no lack of material. That's for sure. My wife and I really got in it today. And, you know, we were just. Really, really raw.
You know, I feel really tender after how we showed up with each other today. It was a tough day. And it's, and it's, you know, in an environment that's really tough with what's happening politically and environmentally, you know, it's just, gosh, there was a shooting in Nashville a couple days ago, another school shooting in our neighborhood.
You know, my, I have friends who've lost their homes and, you know, The LA fires. I have a friend in England who is, you know, walking down with 100 mile an hour winds. And, you know, and every day I read something about some new executive order. It's hard to be in the world right now. And, you know, and I, I feel all that.
And then I get itchy and edgy with my wife. And so, and I'm delighted that I get to be edgy and irritable with her. And you know, that, It feels like a gift. So not that I've arrived anywhere, but I really love where I am and I love the intention of where I hope to go.
Anna: Yeah. Yeah. I love how you kind of talk about this duality of life and our world that things can be really bad.
And at the same time, you can recognize how far you've come. And what you have accomplished in terms of your personal growth and take it both at the same time that, you know, we don't have to either be in despair or be elated that everything is perfect because it never is.
Molly: Yeah, I, I'm learning more and more that it is not one or the other.
It's not black or white. It's not that I'm angry or I'm happy that there is this space where we hold both, you know, and we can hold tragedy and we can hold trauma, you know, and we can hold love and connection. We can hold hopelessness. And hope, you know and I was just so struck by the inaugural prayer breakfast which I think I'm not alone.
So many have been. It's just all over social media and to see, you know, to speaking for myself so much frustration. With Donald Trump and the choices that he's making. And then so I can feel annoyed and irritated and just angry. And then the bishop's words are so life giving and so hopeful. You know, and so I can hold both.
And I really appreciate those lights in the world right now, you know, that, that allow us to hold and carry the hard the grief, the hopelessness, the despair, the the, you know, the disappointment. It's both.
Anna: Yeah, absolutely, absolutely. And Molly, thank you so much. You've given so much good advice here, and all of your advice comes from this lived experience.
So, you know, it's not the three master's degrees, as amazing as that is, it's your life, your life experience that is giving you all of this wisdom. And I want to end with a quote from your book that is at the very end, and it really touched me and you say, the magic of life isn't in perfection, but in the beautiful chaos of being true to oneself.
And that's just a beautiful message, Molly. I love that. So thank you so much for joining me today. This was such a great exploration of authenticity and perfectionism, and I think a much needed reminder for all of us to find that magic on the mess of life.
Molly: Yes. You know, as it gets a little messy with Otis here needing to also say hello, which I talk about him a lot in the book too.
So, yes, I mean, I think that's a great way to end. And I just have so much gratitude. Thank you for the conversation. Thank you to this community. Thank you to all those that are listening and wherever you may be on this journey. I mean, it's, it's a real honor to walk with you. I'm grateful.
Anna: Thank you, Molly.
And for all of you listening, I will definitely link Molly's book and her website in the show notes. And I really hope you end up reading it, this book, Magic in the Mess, because it's such an interesting story and it's beautifully written. And as a thank you to all of my wonderful listeners, I am giving away one copy of the book for free.
So just simply fill out the form in the show notes and you will have a chance to win your own copy of Magic in the Mess.
Molly: I love that and I will I would love to also do that. So let's do two books. Okay, let's do it. I will do one and I will sign them both. So yes, I hope you do get it. I hope you read it.
I hope you win because winning is awesome. And I hope you're in touch, like let's keep the conversation rolling and let's, I'd love to learn from you. So that's exciting and, you know, we'll, Awesome, awesome, thank you so much.
Anna: What a great surprise. I love it.
Molly: Yeah, I love it. It's so fun. Okay.
Anna: All right. I hope you leave feeling a little lighter and more empowered.
Remember that healing takes time and you're exactly where you need to be. Take care of yourselves and until we meet again, be kind to your heart.
